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Rejected
Requested:
6.02K KSM

#419 Proposal for Top-Up for Funding of Kusama System Parachain Collators

Proposer:
BluefinTuna
 
in Treasury
Beneficiary:
(6.02K KSM)
17th Jul '24
(Edited)

This is a proposal for a bounty top-up of the System Parachain Collators funding on Kusama. This funding will cover AssetHub, BridgeHub, Coretime, People and Encointer System Parachains on Kusama.

This proposal supplements the original System Parachain Collator Proposal, and continues the proposal for System Parachain funding, aiming to incentivize the best performance, minimise censorship, and maintain liveliness by securing treasury funding for the operational costs of Kusama System Parachain Collators.
Furthermore it expands its scope to three new System Parachains — Coretime, People and Encointer)
Additionaly — it introduces newly established methodology of selection criteria for invulnerable collator spots, as well as newly established bidding procedure for securing permissionless spots.
All of this is detailed out in the Proposal document.

Funding Request: Infrastructure Costs and Staking Rewards

Coverage: Five Kusama System Parachains (AssetHub, BridgeHub, Coretime, People and Encointer)

Duration: 6-month runway

Start Date: July 1, 2024

Funding Amount: 6,024.02 KSM for Kusama System Parachains

Show More

Proposal Failed

The approval was lesser than the threshold for this track.

Confirmation Attempts

2

Summary
Failed
48.5%Aye
AyeNay
51.5%Nay
Ayes(91)
187.67K KSM
Nays(45)
199.67K KSM
Support
42.39K KSM
Issuance
15.91M KSM
Voting Details
Approval0.00%Threshold0.00%
Support0.00%Threshold0.00%
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Users are saying...
Based on all comments and replies

Overall 33 % of users are feeling optimistic. Dear @HMaTJbeYonb2SoT7ek1sjrtkkKaor7j3yy2VUbj6FDokPXr, thank you for your time and effort in reviewing the proposal document. I understand that some of my questions may have been challenging to answer due to their complexity or ambiguity. However, I appreciate your willingness to engage with them nonetheless. In response to Question 15, we acknowledge that there were two incidents mentioned in section 2.4 of the Proposal document. The Performance-based monthly incentives outlined in section 4.3 have been adjusted accordingly for the collators associated with those incidents. However, the same fixed-flat incentive still applies to all other collators...See More

Overall 33 % of users are feeling neutral. This text discusses Proposal 420, which pertains to Encointer and retroactive payments until June 2024. The proposal also addresses post-June 2024 periods. It clarifies that two incidents were caused by parity collators while Permissionless collators kept the parachain active. Additionally, it suggests re-reading the document for a better understanding and to avoid misinterpretation.

Overall 33 % of users are feeling against it. The text expresses dissatisfaction with a situation involving financial requests and lack of awareness regarding funding sources. It highlights issues such as conflicting demands for funds, potential errors in resource allocation, and communication gaps within an organization or between entities. The overall sentiment is negative due to the perceived mismanagement and confusion surrounding these financial matters.

AI-generated from comments

6Comments
0%
50%
50%
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Web3 edu and investment
 
 
23rd Jul '24

Hello, on behalf of the AIWeb3 DAO (the most vibrant Chinese community within the Polkadot ecosystem, with the mission to amplify the voice of the Chinese-speaking community and support Chinese content creators, ensuring it plays a pivotal role in shaping the future of Polkadot), we have discussed this proposal on twitter space but we still have a little bit questions, such as the relationship between this proposal and the 420, is there any duplicate part? We sincerely invite you to join our Twitter Space which is held every Tuesday at 10 AM (UTC+8) on our official Twitter: https://x.com/aiweb3dao. Please join our Telegram group if you have any questions, English TG group: https://t.me/aiweb3dao_eng and Chinese TG group: https://t.me/aiweb3dao

您好,我代表AIWeb3 DAO,这个波卡生态中最具活力的中文社区,旨在放大中文社区的声音,支持中文内容创作者,确保其在塑造波卡未来中发挥重要作用。 我们经过初步讨论,对这个提案还有一些不理解的地方,特地邀请你们参加我们的Twitter空间是每周二上午10点(UTC+8), 在我们的官方推特:https://x.com/aiweb3dao. 。如有任何问题,请加入我们的Telegram讨论:英文Telegram https://t.me/aiweb3dao_eng , 中文 TG group: https://t.me/aiweb3dao。

PromoTeam Validator
 
 
24th Jul '24

An important part of the infrastructure needs to be supported, but there is some confusion regarding the proposals 419 and 420. They are asking for compensation for the same contributions, so you need to post a new proposal to clarify the spending and who will receive compensation.

Next time, please try to reduce these expenses if possible:

  • Curator fee: 7.5% - $8,372.87
  • Tooling: $5,581.91
  • Price Fluctuation Buffer: $12,559.31
Hide replies
Mile
 
 
1st Aug '24

@Dm4uKxZJZHJbpZpfnYPiHnbgyHWKMU1s5h6X7kqjfYv1Xkk 

Proposal 420 is for the Encointer and for the retroactive payment of period until June 2024, while this proposal covers the period after June 2024.

So there is no confusion, if you actually read the proposals :)

ltfschoen
 
 
28th Jul '24
(Edited)
Voted Nay

Questions:

1 - Could you please list all the invulnerable collators and which of the five Kusama System Parachains they are associated with, and detail the server technical details and configuration (e.g. self-hosted or cloud service provider used if any, bare metal dedicated or shared cpu, ram, storage, bandwidth, historic uptime track record, country server hosted in, backup frequency) that each of those invulnerable collators are using?

2 - In section 2.2 of the "Proposal document" in the section "methodology for obtaining permissionless and invulnerable slots" it says you "plan to build on the selection process as changes settle in and there are more interested candidates". i) How are you going to obtain governance approval of your selection criteria and selection process? ii) What will be your selection criteria? iii) Is your selection criteria going to be similar to the selection criteria that was used by the Paseo Network when they were onboarding infrastructure providers, where they had limited diversity and restricted it to contributors that had been a contributor to the Polkadot 1KV Programme or that maintains an invulnerable collator for a system chain for a parachain connected to either, Kusama or Polkadot, but did not welcome other equally skilled and experienced prospective contributors (e.g. that may maintain a validator or collator in the Polkadot ecosystem)? iv) How often will you review that selection criteria and selection process and obtain governance approval to continue with or without changes (e.g. change the collators, or the number of collators, or the selection criteria)? v) How will you assess whether each of those Kusama System Parachains have reached an adequately more mature state and that you have finished bootstrapping a stable set of invulnerable collators and permissionless collators and are able to relax your selection criteria and selection process (e.g. similar to what Paseo Network proposed they would do here)?

3 - In section 2.3 of the "Proposal document", there is a performance spreadsheet entitled "System Parachains Collator Bounty", where there are cells that show a child bounty reward in KSM on specific dates and provide a link to the child bounty. Where is the glossary that explains what CR and SR refer to in those child bounties?

4 - In section 2.3 of the "Proposal document", there is a performance spreadsheet entitled "System Parachains Collator Bounty", how did you establish that an hourly rate of $80/hr was justified?

5 - In section 2.3 of the "Proposal document", there is a performance spreadsheet entitled "System Parachains Collator Bounty", it states that "Development work due to changes with staking pallet" was required, could you please provide evidence of that development work?

6 - In section 2.3 of the "Proposal document", there is a performance spreadsheet entitled "System Parachains Collator Bounty", could you please provide the hosting fee payment receipts for each "Hosting Fee" that is shown?

7 - In section 2.3 of the "Proposal document", there is a performance spreadsheet entitled "System Parachains Collator Bounty", is there an accompanying report document that explains in detail to the Kusama community of stakeholders how they should interpret the values shown in that spreadsheet?

8 - In section 2.4 of the "Proposal document", you mention that there were two incidents, so could you please provide a link to your Incident Post-Mortem Process and the Incident Report for each of those incidents (that details the cause, impact, actions taken to mitigate it and resolve it, and future actions to prevent it happening again)?

9 - In section 3.1-3.2 of the "Proposal document", how did you determine the deposit that is required in KSM for invulnerables and permissionless collators on each of the Kusama System Parachains, and why are the deposit values so low? In comparison, the deposit required to register a parachain ID and upload WASM code on Kusama Coretime is ~1100 KSM https://substrate.stackexchange.com/a/11608/83

10 - In section 3.1 of the "Proposal document", why is there a majority with 4/6 of the invulnerables on Kusama Encointer being run by Encointer?

11 - In section 3.1 of the "Proposal document", why are you only focussed on retroactively funding Polkadotters's Kusama Encointer collator, but not adequately collaborating with the Encointer team to consolidate all their retroactive funding requests that are associated with Kusama System Parachains, as highlighted in my comments of concern in their Referenda #420 here?

12 - In section 4.2 of the ["Proposal document"] it states "Requests for modest amounts are also included to cover administrative expenses, the cost of the performance assessment tool and a 10% contingency on the total budget amount to buffer fluctuations with token prices". How are you going to handle fluctuations in the token price that exceed your 10% contingency? Are you going to just absorb the cost impact?

13 - In section 4.2 of the ["Proposal document"] there are tables where you are requesting upfront a "Price Fluctuation Buffer", rather than requesting those contingency amounts ad-hoc retroactively, as the need arises. As such, are you intending to return that contingency "Price Fluctuation Buffer" to the Kusama Treasury? If so, when will you return it by, and what interest rate are you expecting the Kusama Treasury to charge for that duration, or what interest rate are you offering to borrow those continency funds?

14 - In section 4.2 of the ["Proposal document"] there are tables that mention "Perf Tooling" and "Tooling". What is the difference between these tools? Could you please provide a copy of the invoices or payment receipts associated with those tools, or a breakdown of those tooling fees? Is "Perf" an abbreviation for "Performance"?

15 - In section 2.4 of the "Proposal document", you mention that there were two incidents. How has the "Performance based monthly incentives" in section 4.3 been adjusted for the collators that were associated with those two incidents? Why does the same fixed-flat incentive still apply despite the occurrence of such incidents?

16 - In section 4.5 of the "Proposal document", there is the "Performance Assessment Tool" section. How are you allowing and incentivising external curators to also undertake that task to verify that the performance assessment results that you obtain are correct?

17 - In section 6.0 of the "Proposal document", why does it state that "hosting should be distributed and collators should not use the same provider" is only a guideline rather than a requirement? Why was this overlooked as being an initial requirement, and is only now arising as a "Future initiative"? For example, given that it is only a guideline there's nothing stopping the four (4) Encointer Invulnerables for Kusama Encointer (that comprise >65% of the invulnerables collators) from all being hosted on the same cloud service provider.

18 - In section 6.0 of the "Proposal document", why does it state that "all System Parachain collators are members of the Polkadot 1kv validator program" is only a guideline rather than a requirement, so it is consistent with how it is a requirement on the Paseo Network? Note that I do not believe it should be a strict requirement, I'm only questioning the inconsistency, whereby some consider it a strict requirement, whilst others consider it a guideline.

Hide replies
Mile
 
 
1st Aug '24

@ltfschoen 

Thank you for your comments, but most of your points are actually discussed in the document. For example, your point 15; if you read document carefully you can see that the two incidents were caused by parity collators and only the Permissionless collators were keeping the parachain lively.

Majority of your points look like you are misinterpreting the document on purpose to fuel the backing of your Nay vote. I would ask you to re-read the document. Thank you.

ltfschoen
 
 
4th Aug '24

@HMaTJbeYonb2SoT7ek1sjrtkkKaor7j3yy2VUbj6FDokPXr 

I made the effort to read and comprehended the whole proposal and all the attachments carefully and I prepared all those questions based on it, but unfortunately you were not willing to answer any of my questions, you didn't even bother to answer Question 3 that simply asked for the definition of CR and SR. So on that basis I couldn't consider changing my vote, as much as I had hoped to sympathise with your proposal and wish for Kusama System Parachain Collators to be kept funded.

In answer to your response that relates to Question 15, I didn't ask you to tell me who caused those two incidents or who kept the parachain lively, I was already aware of that from reading your whole proposal. I asked a completely different question from that. Please kindly make the effort to read and comprehend the questions properly in future.

The majority of my questions were asking for your help so I could accurately interpret the document to hopefully convince my to swing my vote from Nay to Aye, but you didn't provide any help, so unfortunately I wasn't convinced.

If you're not willing to help answer even basic questions from OpenGov voters, and you ignore the important questions, then I do not have faith that you would be willing to appropriately help Kusama System Parachain Collators.

I would suggest that you resubmit the proposal and nominate another team member to respond to questions from the OpenGov community.

 

SUPERDUPONT
 
 
31st Jul '24
Voted Nay

Sorry but I NAYed it in the end. Ref 420 is also requesting funds from the Treasury, so something is wrong here.

And Eincointer is not even aware of the funding from 419…

Hide replies
Mile
 
 
1st Aug '24

@CryptoSurfer 

Proposal 420 is for the Encointer and for the retroactive payment of period until June 2024, while this proposal covers the period after June 2024.

So there is no confusion, if you actually read the proposals :)

Paradox
 
 
31st Jul '24

@Web3 edu and investment @SUPERDUPONT @PromoTeam Validator [@RogerLe]

There seems to be some issue with accusations of double spends and funding without authorization.

This referendum seeks to fund collators on Encointer which is a system chain by vote. Like with other chains, we don't allocate funding to the team's collators, rather, only to those who secured slots permissionlessly or those who were elected (by governance) as invulnerables.

To make that even more simple, we don't cover funding to Parity or Encointer for the operation of any collators they operate. At the moment Parity runs two collators per chain and Encointer is operating four on its chain.

Funding under our budget starts from July and extends for six months, where as I believe Encointer's is retro.

As it relates to unauthorized approach, I think Malik is not well informed, which is usually the case. Brenzi approached the IBP and later system collators with news of Encointer's permissionless collation. He found that funding for same under the model of System collation to be a suitable match and adjusted their collator documents to make direct reference to this.

https://book.encointer.org/infrastructure-collator-setup.html#incentives

Knocking the referendum out of confirmation and so close to the end of the decision period was in poor taste. It is extremely disappointing to see the W3F's delegates (Decentralized Voices) participate in such an action against a programme that's well established and has benefited the chain directly. More-so I expected better understanding from Superdupont and Alex who operate nodes themselves.

Was there an attempt to raise the concern with the proposer or in the direction channel?

Hide replies
SUPERDUPONT
 
 
1st Aug '24

@HqRcfhH8VXMhuCk5JXe28WMgDDuW9MVDVNofe1nnTcefVZn  Feel free to resubmit if needed with clarifications.

The coincidence of having both 419 and 420 refs at the same time was confusing and raised concerns. Late concerns I fully agree.

You received questions a week ago and they were laying without answers.

I feel sorry that the ref ends failing but it’s also the result of a lack of communication.

Next submission will be better I guess.

Web3 edu and investment
 
 
1st Aug '24

@HqRcfhH8VXMhuCk5JXe28WMgDDuW9MVDVNofe1nnTcefVZn Thank you very much for the clarification, it is clear now, we would vote AYE for sure if they resubmit, the comment and concern we have left under the proposal is not answered for more than a week, and we didn't know that we should raise the concern in the direction channel, since normally we just communicate under the proposal here.


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