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Rejected

#469 Minimum coretime price

Proposer:
olanod
 
in Democracy
13th Nov '24

The current price adapter for coretime is not great when demand for cores is so low, it has quickly driven down price to virtually 0 KSM/month, I'm pretty sure the actual cost of validating work going to Kusama cores is higher than that. Ideally coretime price should counter the money spent printing money paying validators.

A "funny" side effect of coretime being basically free is the trend of people buying every core available, it's a minor thing but it can get become inconvenient, specially for new builders ... you know, the people we want to attract instead of scaring away. I must admit I started this trend assuming it would trigger a price adjustment but later realize that's not how the price adapter works so it just meant inconvenience, in my defense I transferred cores to those who needed it(not every hoarder will do the same) and I'm building infrastructure to allow projects scale their organization to their own "satellite chain" where infrastructure and coretime is managed for them.

How do we solve this? With a better pricing system of course, one that takes more factors into account like the reality of the market and demand for our blockspace. In the meantime however a simple change that improves our pricing problems can be to set a minimum to how low the price of a core can get. How much is a good minimum? we can discuss endlessly about it but for now I would propose a minimum from the experience of a builder and a hoarder: 10KSM, even with KSM price increasing x10 it would still be reasonable for builders and it also keeps a number of hoarders away(e.g. it was ok to pay 10 KSM for all available cores but 500+ KSM not).

The respective changes to the Polkadot SDK and the Kusama runtime would be covered by myself or our trusted fellow Pablo.

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Proposal Failed

The approval was lesser than the threshold for this track.
Summary
Failed
41.4%Aye
AyeNay
58.6%Nay
Ayes(64)
79.02K KSM
Nays(16)
111.67K KSM
Support
23.28K KSM
Issuance
15.92M KSM
Voting Details
Approval41.44%Threshold50.04%
Support0.15%Threshold0.15%
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Users are saying...
Based on all comments and replies

Overall 100 % of users are feeling neutral. A discussion on Polkadot's pricing model reveals concerns about its inadequacy for higher core counts, potentially leading to a fastest finger first market and non-deterministic barriers for teams wanting to start projects. Suggestions include adjusting the price adapter heuristic based on demand changes and considering dynamic pricing mechanisms or trustless secondary markets as temporary solutions until a reworked model is implemented.

AI-generated from comments

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JohnO
 
 
14th Nov '24

In my opinion, the core pricing model is poorly designed. While I think this change is a positive step, I believe we'll see a complete redesign of the pricing model in the near future.

agamkenia
 
 
20th Nov '24

why not use USD to pursce coretime and use that USD to buyback and burn ksm? is that a bad idea?

ChaosDAO
 
 
20th Nov '24

ChaosDAO would like to provide the following feedback from our community. We offer this feedback voluntarily in the spirit of OpenGov, in order to help teams improve their proposals so we can all build the network together.

  1. Some members believe that instead of setting a minimum price for core sales, that we should instead fix the core pricing mechanism so that it increases dynamically as more cores are purchased.

  2. Some members believe that there is an abundance of cores on the primary market (81 cores on sale at a price of 0.0568 KSM at the time of writing), and that the issue of a single actor purchasing all of the cores only really happens when the lead in time has expired and the price per core gets significantly cheaper.

  3. Some members referred to the latest OpenDev call where Gavin Wood and Donal Murray discussed this issue, and would reccomend that the proponent reviews that podcast.

  4. Some members initially agreed with the referendum and were seeking more information, and then said information was provided by members of the Polkadot technical fellowship.

ChaosDAO votes as a collective based on the results of our anonymous internal voting procedures. Our members are not required to provide any feedback about why they have voted in a particular direction. Similarly, to respect our members' right to anonymity, we will not be sharing the names of individuals who have chosen to voluntarily provide feedback. You can find out more about how we vote and how to get in contact with us here: https://x.com/ChaosDAO/status/1762986093316587995.

seadanda
 
 
20th Nov '24

I thought I'd weigh in here after talking about it a bit on the Fellowship call yesterday.

Like I mentioned on the call, I 100% agree that the current pricing model falls short with a higher core count, and have been exploring options for a next iteration of the pricing adapter which takes more information into consideration and more closely aligns with one of the goals (lowering the barrier to entry), so watch this space. However I think that minimum pricing is not the way to solve some of the issues described here.

I would like to separate the cost of production into a different discussion and not cover it here. It was a useful starting point to estimate the starting price where we had no historical data of demand-driven pricing, but I don't think it has a bearing on the analysis of the current problem

I'd like to rephrase the problem statement as the following:
> The current price adapter falls short with higher core count, failing to provide a target price for the next sale which seems to represent the market sentiment over time (not just one off variations due to temporary market conditions) with the effect that the cost spread is decreased, even with a large lead-in factor, arguably allowing the cores to fall to a "fastest finger first" market and becoming a non-deterministic barrier to teams who want to start a project on Kusama.

 

By non-deterministic I mean that even if you know you're willing to pay 10000KSM (insert ridiculously high number here) to get a core, if the lead-in period starts much lower you're not able to show how much you value it and are forced to offer the ceiling price in the absence of secondary markets, therefore you have no option to outbid people who value it less than you and somebody could bulk buy all cores, beating you to it.

 

What I'd suggest is to use a part of the configuration that has been overlooked, the `ideal_bulk_proportion`. From the docs:
```

The proportion of cores available for sale which should be sold.

If more cores are sold than this, then further sales will no longer be considered in determining the sellout price. In other words the sellout price will be the last price paid, without going over this limit.

pub ideal_bulk_proportion: Perbill,

```

So if we establish a rough heuristic that when we add cores, if we're not aware of any increases in demand, we can set this to the proportion of the old core count to the new core count and maintain the previous price finding behaviour.
If we do then get the increase in demand then we end up with the opposite problem with runaway upward pricing, but this can be easily adjusted with a referendum to set the configuration.

Applying this heuristic with the benefit of hindsight, we could say that when we increased the core count from ~60 cores to 100 cores, we should have also decreased the `ideal_bulk_proportion` from 100% to 60% to get a naive equivalent. I think it was a useful test for the pricing adapter, but I think that now testing this heuristic that I've proposed is good for Polkadot while also addressing some of the issues raised here. This could be achieved without code changes and just make a referendum to change this value in the broker configuration.

Since we have had several sales with this in place, maybe we could consider a more brutal cut for a few sales to speed up the return to what governance deems an equilibrium point by decreasing the `ideal_bulk_proportion` lower than 60%, then a future referendum could adjust it to what is seen to be a stable price position that balances our aims.

To be clear, I still consider this a temporary adjustment until a pricing model rework, and it could be largely mitigated with trustless secondary markets. Also it could be argued that Kusama should be allowed to be Kusama too, but I think that this is a useful test for when the Polkadot core count increases while also addressing some complaints.

I'll crosspost this on the forum if anybody wants to discuss it further.

Hide replies
olanod
 
 
20th Nov '24

@seadanda Thanks for chiming in, adjusting `ideal_bulk_proportion` seems like a good way to counter the lack of demand in the short term.

COSMOTRON
 
 
27th Nov '24
Voted Nay

After watching the latest OpenDev call, we are changing our position to nay on that matter. Furthermore, since we took time to mull over this question, we will oppose any attempt, here or on the sister chain, to hinder competition by setting arbitrary mimimas on any parameters. It is our opinion that by doing so we favor mediocrity.


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